Expiration Dates

[lauradickman]

Does anyone know where I can find documentation on expiration dates. We are debating if an item expires at the begining or the end of the month. For example, if the expiration date is 12/07, is it 12/1/07 or 12/31/07?

[CSS TECH]

Does anyone know where I can find documentation on expiration dates. We are debating if an item expires at the begining or the end of the month. For example, if the expiration date is 12/07, is it 12/1/07 or 12/31/07?
Very good question Laura! According to the liaison nurse in my department, the AORN states that the expiration day is the last day of the month, which I totally disagree with. If an expiration date is 12/07, this means that the item cannot be used on any day of the month of December 2007. The last day of use should be November 30.
I think the FDA and heathcare institutions should ask manufacturers to specify expiration dates in the format of mm/dd/yyyy.

[Harvey Johnson]

Unless the day is specified, we go by the first of the month, also.
Think of it as WWJCD
(what would joint commission do?)
Or like the old baseball umpire creed, "when in doubt, call 'em out!"

[wperez]

If the expiration date is 12/07 we go to the end of the month. I checked and the pharmacy uses the same schedule.

[CSS TECH]

If the expiration date is 12/07 we go to the end of the month. I checked and the pharmacy uses the same schedule.
They have the same practice in my facility. To me it's wrong! If something is expired in December 2007, December 1st. 2007 will be the expiration date. That's how I understand it!

[sheper1]

I would go by what the manufacturer states as the actual expiration date. I know on pharmaceuticals it is the last day of the month.

[CSS TECH]

I would go by what the manufacturer states as the actual expiration date. I know on pharmaceuticals it is the last day of the month.
What would you go by if the manufacturer stated the date in the form of a month and a year (Dec 08 or 12/2008)?
I think it's time to ask manufacturers to come with dates mentioning a day, a month and a year. That would make it so clear!

[sheper1]

I have not had any problems in getting manufacturers to give me in writing whether they go by the first day of the month or the last day of the month. Most follow what the pharmaceutical companies follow and that is the last day of the month.

[CSS TECH]

I have not had any problems in getting manufacturers to give me in writing whether they go by the first day of the month or the last day of the month. Most follow what the pharmaceutical companies follow and that is the last day of the month.

OK! I am out now. It seems I am facing a serious case of... misunderstanding!

[sheper1]

I do not see where there is any misunderstanding here. you would like the manufacturers to give you a specific day fo the month that the item goes out of date. Until that happens to protect your organization get from the manufacturers in writing whether you should use the first day of the month or the last day of the month.

[wperez]

I would hate to see how much money is lost by CSS TECH if everything that expires on 12/07 is discarded at the beginning of the month.

[Harvey Johnson]

C'mon, Lighten up..... I think we have given CSS enough grief for the month.....
Thinking it through, irregardless of first or last of the month, in the rare instances it occurs, if a product is that slow moving it sits on the shelf until 30 days from an expiration date, either your par level has to be adjusted or you have to seriously consider if that particular product needs to be in your inventory, researching to see if it can be replaced by a more frequently used similar item.
I would think our departments have enough to do without hovering over products for 30 days to be sure they are off the shelf before expiration.

[Ray Taurasi]

Standard practice for expiration dates is generally the end of the month posted - so if the posted expiration date is 12/07 the last day of December 2007 (12/31/07) would be the expiration date. To obviate any confusion you can develop a hospital policy to this affect.

[CSS TECH]

I would hate to see how much money is lost by CSS TECH if everything that expires on 12/07 is discarded at the beginning of the month.
The whole interest is now in how much money can be saved! We don’t care anymore about patient safety! Or I am wondering if we ever cared at all. Let’s save money! I am sure if your gallon of milk shows an expiration date of 12/14/2007, you will not drink from it today, will you?

[wperez]

you know my friend if you don't want asnwers to your issues don't participte. You really need to grow up. You seem to be the real problem at your facility. You come across as very negative. We are trying to help you out.

[CSS TECH]

you know my friend if you don't want asnwers to your issues don't participte. You really need to grow up. You seem to be the real problem at your facility. You come across as very negative. We are trying to help you out.
Oooops! I might have hit a nerve! Sorry! Who are you to tell me not to participate? You need to stop your arrogance!
I need to grow up! I am the real problem at my facility! I am very negative! What else can you say about me? You are trying to help me out? You need to try to help yourself first.
I am sure if your gallon of milk shows an expiration date of 12/14/2007, you will not drink from it today, will you?

[CSS TECH]

Standard practice for expiration dates is generally the end of the month posted - so if the posted expiration date is 12/07 the last day of December 2007 (12/31/07) would be the expiration date. To obviate any confusion you can develop a hospital policy to this affect.

Ray, I think it would be much better if manufacturers could express expiration dates in the form of dd/mm/yyyy. It would still be confusing though! I am sure some people would still wait for toninght at 11:59:59 before discarding a product with a date of 12/14/2007! Just for the sake of saving money!;) But at least the confusion would be less because it would be based on one day, not one month!

[Ray Taurasi]

I agree with you on that a complete date day/month/year would clarify the concern.......I do believe that some are so stated. Also you will find wording on packages that states the "expiration is the last day of the month printed"

[jrc]

We use the first of the month. The way to save money is to avoid getting that close to outdates in the first place. We do that by:
1) Watching how much we order.
2) Checking outdates on a regular basis.
3) Removing items within 3 months of outdating and getting them to distribution or another department that uses those items more frequently, so we do not end up throwing them away.

If we do have something outdate, we donate it to an organization that performs medical missions work. They are glad to receive it, and we get to do some good for those outside our local community.

[CSS TECH]

We use the first of the month. The way to save money is to avoid getting that close to outdates in the first place. We do that by:
1) Watching how much we order.
2) Checking outdates on a regular basis.
3) Removing items within 3 months of outdating and getting them to distribution or another department that uses those items more frequently, so we do not end up throwing them away.

If we do have something outdate, we donate it to an organization that performs medical missions work. They are glad to receive it, and we get to do some good for those outside our local community.

Jrc, I am afraid to post any reply. I am so controversial these days and it seems my controversies are generating a lot of heat in this forum. I don’t want that to happen!
You made a very interesting statement when you said “If we do have something outdate, we donate it to an organization that performs medical missions work. They are glad to receive it, and we get to do some good for those outside our local community.”
My questions are very simple: Why do you get rid of outdated items in the first place? If those items are not safe for use at your facility, what then makes them safe to be used on poor people of the Third World countries?

[Harvey Johnson]

We contribute to Northwest Medical Teams, they do a lot of work overseas. Earlier this year we received a memo stating they would no longer accept out of date items.

(CSS, IMHO you add value to the discussion board and I think everyone would enjoy your exchanges more if you keep to the subject and forget the personal attacks.)

[CSS TECH]

We contribute to Northwest Medical Teams, they do a lot of work overseas. Earlier this year we received a memo stating they would no longer accept out of date items.

(CSS, IMHO you add value to the discussion board and I think everyone would enjoy your exchanges more if you keep to the subject and forget the personal attacks.)


Yeah! When the webmaster was talking about personal attacks, I was the member he had in mind? I never attacked anybody Spd. I just feel I have to respond appropriately when I come under attack. People say I am negative; I need to grow up; I am the problem; I am an angry technician; they are surprised I am an Instructional Support Assistant, and so on. I could not stay quiet! Also I am the kind of member who say what I think, no matter what!
Thanks for the info regarding the memo you received. I was terribly troubled by that practice of collecting outdated item to send to poor countries. And let me share this story with you:
A famous surgeon from my facility went on a trip to a Third World country for two weeks. There he performed many surgeries. More than 50, he said. When he came back he was telling us about his experience. He said the main problem was a lack of surgical instrumentation. He asked SPD to start collecting all instruments that are beyond repair so he could ship them there. He said they will probably be able to fix them there. When I explained to him that his approach shows no sign of humanism at all, he got upset and claimed he was just helping. Then I said to him it would be better to buy a set of 12 hemostatic clamps and send them to that country instead of collecting all kind of garbage from the hospital.
Sorry! That's the way I am! I always say what I think! The doctor thought I was nobody to tell him what to do. Oh, well! Too bad!

[jrc]

My questions are very simple: Why do you get rid of outdated items in the first place? If those items are not safe for use at your facility, what then makes them safe to be used on poor people of the Third World countries?
That is a valid concern. It is my belief that may of the items we slap an expiration date on are still quite safe past that date, but corporate greed and litigiousness have driven us to this point. Having worked on humanitarian health missions, I can tell you that we are happy for whatever supplies we can get. We will not use something we know is unsafe, but we will improvise like you wouldn't believe. The alternative is to waste resources that could help others.

[CSS TECH]

That is a valid concern. It is my belief that may of the items we slap an expiration date on are still quite safe past that date, but corporate greed and litigiousness have driven us to this point. Having worked on humanitarian health missions, I can tell you that we are happy for whatever supplies we can get. We will not use something we know is unsafe, but we will improvise like you wouldn't believe. The alternative is to waste resources that could help others.

Jrc, my concern remains. Why do you think you would waste those resources by discarding them at expiration date? Why those resources cannot be used in hospitals in America, but are fine to be used on poor patients in Third World countries? If the items are still safe, why not use them here?

[cpdguy]

Responses have come up with concern of the FDA and Labeling. Certain devices require specific labeling, this is all regulated by the FDA already.

The FDA has an excellent web stie that you can go to any time to research the topic of labeling and what a manufacture should and should not do. The FDA also has a process that they want to hear from the user;they want feedback. In fact here is some of the language from that document.

This is from page 22,23 and 24; here is the link to read the complete document on general labeling of medical devices.

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/dsma/470.pdf

"if used,expiration dates must reflect the time after final packaging during which the device is fit for its intended use when stored and used per its labeling...shelf life dating solely for packaging integrity and sterility is not usually required by the FDA for general medical devices. There may be a need for expiration dating when a particular component of a device,such as a battery or diagnostic reagent, has a finite useful life...." Now this is the GENERAL Labeling requirements, read the complete document,what I am trying to point out is that manufactures when it comes to labeling have laws they must follow for certain products. As long as they follow the laws they are fine.

The debate is over the date and how it should apear on the packaging and when does a item expire whena general date of "12/07" appear on the package.The first of the month or the end. The manufacture is the only one to tell you that. Nobody else.

We all need to understand the process to make informed responses. I along with so many others do not like specific "things"; we all have to deceided to work toward changing that issue or not. It is that simple. So if people do not like how the law is stated and applied,do something about it, start the process to change it. Users have a powerful voice. Some times people who make the rules and the laws do not completely understand the " practical side" and that is the role of the users.In this case it might apply. But if it is an issue work toward chaning that concern in a positive way within the system.

Now sure it would be nice to have month/date/year for US products. As users if this is an issue how many of us have actually made the FDA aware of this conern and the "possible" confussion this creates within the user community.

We always have choices,when it comes to change.We can do something about it or not.

Just my two cents on the issue.

[jrc]

Jrc, my concern remains. Why do you think you would waste those resources by discarding them at expiration date? Why those resources cannot be used in hospitals in America, but are fine to be used on poor patients in Third World countries? If the items are still safe, why not use them here?We cannot use items that have exceeded their printed expiration date because we must comply with regulations here in the US and the state of Wisconsin. That means we sometimes dispose of items we know could still be of use.

Other countries have different regulations. They also have a great need for items we would throw away but that are still useful. I wish we could donate all new items to these missions organizations, but we do not have the resources for that. I can tell you from my experience on such a mission, when you see people who do not have even the most basic health needs addressed, and when you have had to make do with what you would have called "junk" at home, you gain a new perspective on how much waste occurs here in the US.

[CSS TECH]

We cannot use items that have exceeded their printed expiration date because we must comply with regulations here in the US and the state of Wisconsin. That means we sometimes dispose of items we know could still be of use.

Other countries have different regulations. They also have a great need for items we would throw away but that are still useful. I wish we could donate all new items to these missions organizations, but we do not have the resources for that. I can tell you from my experience on such a mission, when you see people who do not have even the most basic health needs addressed, and when you have had to make do with what you would have called "junk" at home, you gain a new perspective on how much waste occurs here in the US.

Thank you for your answer Jrc! I understand your point and it makes sense. However, I tend to believe that when it comes to expiration dates for medical products, regulations should be universal. How can a country decide to use an item today when the manufacturer states such item expired last month?

Of course using an expired or an infected item to save a life would not be an offense! Let's think about this scenario for example: Somebody needs a blood transfusion, but the only blood available to save the patient's life is infected with HIV (I am not thinking about today when all blood is screened). What to do? Transfuse the blood or let the patient die?

This discussion might seem irrelevant to the forum! Please, forgive me people!

[Harvey Johnson]

CSS,
You pose some ethical questions one has to take pause to consider.
Thank You.
Recalling the phrase "first do no harm" for Doc's, I'm sure even in third world countries they consider carefully their course of action and appreciate any assistance given, old expired items and technology or not. As jrc pointed out people can become very creative when faced with tough choices.
If the predicted pandemic ever occurs, we too wil be faced with tough choices. I'm sure most expiration dates will become irrelevant here, also.
You are correct also, ideally there shouldn't be any difference in treatment for a Donald Trump or an orphan in Darfur, unfortunately we don't yet live in that ideal world (John Lennon's "Imagine") so we have to do what's best with what we have, as your analogy of the aids tainted blood vs the dying patient paradox presents.
As with most paradox, unfortunately there is no correct answer.

[CSS TECH]

CSS,
You pose some ethical questions one has to take pause to consider.
Thank You.
Recalling the phrase "first do no harm" for Doc's, I'm sure even in third world countries they consider carefully their course of action and appreciate any assistance given, old expired items and technology or not. As jrc pointed out people can become very creative when faced with tough choices.
If the predicted pandemic ever occurs, we too wil be faced with tough choices. I'm sure most expiration dates will become irrelevant here, also.
You are correct also, ideally there shouldn't be any difference in treatment for a Donald Trump or an orphan in Darfur, unfortunately we don't yet live in that ideal world (John Lennon's "Imagine") so we have to do what's best with what we have, as your analogy of the aids tainted blood vs the dying patient paradox presents.
As with most paradox, unfortunately there is no correct answer.
Thank you so much Spd for the reply! Thanks also to Jrc! Happy Holidays to all!

[allis]

What is really the expiration date? I know for car inspection it's the last day of the month punched. Is it the same for medical items?

[jackjohn]

like cpdguy wrote above

" The debate is over the date and how it should apear on the packaging and when does a item expire whena general date of "12/07" appear on the package.The first of the month or the end. The manufacture is the only one to tell you that. Nobody else. "

short of calling the manufacturer of the items in question , I guess you could ask your infection control for advice on your facility in house policy on outdates or ... as a third option , go with the first day of the month as the expiration date (if it reads 12/08 then 12/01/08 would be your expiration date)... that takes any guess work out of the mix